Molly Ringle

I was so disappointed in Jonathan for falling in with Warren and Andrew. Still, it's clear from his attempts to use magic to solve his problems in Superstar that he still has a lot of progress to make on the personal growth front.

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Well, the "Class Protector" award became ironic a few minutes later, didn't it, as a substantial proportion of the class got wiped out. That itself might have been the start of him changing his mind.

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Hmm, I did, and he's seen them, but I don't recall any towel comments. Maybe I'll try again!

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*nod*
It's too bad his arc ended how it did. He could have used a chance at redemption, like Andrew got.

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Heh, true. After graduation maybe some disillusionment set in.

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The Buffy PTB have been asked about Jonathan's fate, and their answer was that they considered him already redeemed and that they'd killed him off because they felt that his character arc was over. They felt that Andrew, OTOH, had a longer way to go.

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extrajoker.livejournal.com

Am I the only one who thinks Andrew doesn't deserve his shot at redemption? It always bothered me that he got away with murder and ended up a playboy-among-slayers as his reward.

Of course, I didn't like much of what went on with those characters. It always makes me a little sad to see villified geekdom...sort of feels like writers are dissing their fan base.

All that being said, I was quite glad to see Warren skinned. If I were Willow, I think I'd have a hard time feeling guilty over that.

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Andrew alternately amuses and annoys me. It does bug me that he got away with murder.

It also bothered me to see geeks villified, and I was also glad to see Warren killed. I remember thinking, "Faster, Willow, kill kill."

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That's too bad -- he had redeemed himself, but I would rather have seen him saved than Andrew. I had thought it was some sort of actor-availability issue that made them dump Jonathan and keep Andrew, but I guess not.

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That's actually one of the things that most bothers me about the Buffyverse: No one is ever saved. Any victory won today will be undone in next week's episode, or next season, or whenever the writers get around to it.

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I'm probably about the hundred-millionth person to say this, but something about Andrew being the outcast because of his geekiness doesn't fit. After all, that's what made Xander and Willow outcasts, but by the time Andrew's climbing up the tower with his rifle, the Scoobies are the true in-group, so no one's cooler than the geeks. Andrew's still their Neville Longbottom, though. (And yes, I think Neville got a raw deal from his Author.) And yes, Andrew's Writers are a bit inconsistent on that point.

I find Andrew annoying almost all the time, but it's pretty evident that everyone who actually shares his world, with the possible occasional exception of Jonathan, does too. ("Why is that guy tied to a chair?" "The question you'll soon be asking is 'Why isn't he gagged?'") I guess he's supposed to be annoying, which makes him a whole lot better than Riley...

Oh, and Willow skinning and vaporizing Warren just makes me love her all the more.

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That's cute!

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I'm probably about the hundred-millionth person to say this, but something about Andrew being the outcast because of his geekiness doesn't fit. After all, that's what made Xander and Willow outcasts,
Yes, but isn't the point that different people can respond to the same circumstances in different ways?

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Too true to life, then?

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Warren was always a creep and was askin' for killin'. That said, if I were Willow I'd be horrified at what I'd done, too. Pretty nasty images to live with.

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I wondered about the actor availability issue too. I know Danny Strong (Jonathan) moved on to 'Gilmore Girls' eventually, and has been doing screenwriting lately...

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Heh, exactly. Also a good writing move, though. If you tie everything up prettily in any one episode, you've given the viewers a reason to stop watching. Joss does sometimes go a bit out of his way to avoid a happy ending, though, especially for the couples in his series.

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Oddly, the thing that bothers me most about Andrew's portrayal is sort of minor. They make him almost definitely gay for the whole run of BtVS, then in season 5 of Angel he tells Angel and Spike, "People can change" (in reference to something else), and puts his arms around two cute girls and saunters out for a night on the town. I thought people were supposed to get all up in arms when gay people claim to convert to straightness? Or were they going out to check out guys together?

Of course, on the flip side, Willow claims to convert to complete lesbianhood--"Gay now"--as if her previous love and desire for Oz and Xander is the sort of thing that could never, ever again happen in her life. That bothers me too. Maybe Joss can't allow characters to just be bi.

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They make him almost definitely gay for the whole run of BtVS, then in season 5 of Angel he tells Angel and Spike, "People can change" (in reference to something else), and puts his arms around two cute girls and saunters out for a night on the town.

Believe me, I was plenty cheesed about that scene. WTF were they thinking?

I thought people were supposed to get all up in arms when gay people claim to convert to straightness?

They are, and I am (up in arms about straight conversion claims, that is). Hey Religious Wrong, "repression" + "denial" do not equal "conversion."

Or were they going out to check out guys together?

That's what I choose to believe.

Willow claims to convert to complete lesbianhood--"Gay now"--as if her previous love and desire for Oz and Xander is the sort of thing that could never, ever again happen in her life. That bothers me too.

Me as well. It's very clear from her attractions to Xander and Oz that Willow isn't a Kinsey 6.

That's what I choose to believe.

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I'm going to be Andrew-like and point out that it was Jonathan who climbed up the tower :-)

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Yes, he seems to have couple issues, or happy-romance issues, to match his daddy issues. And yet he seems to have a happy enough marriage...

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Like real life, but with more vampires.

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Oops, darnit! Of course it was, and I like so totally knew that. Wake up and pay attention, Naill!

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Don't forget her crush on Giles, too. (We won't go into why I think that's important...) IIRC, Joss Whedon later said the thing with Andrew and the Italian babes was a mistake. Here - to make up for my Andrew/Jonathan mixup earlier, I've gone and looked it up:

"It has to be said: the Andrew scene in 'The Girl in Question' was a victim of me dropping the ball. I specifically said there should be a party of men AND women, all glamorous and Italian, waiting for Andrew. I wasn't there when it was shot, and didn't have the time/money/energy to change it after the fact, though it made me crazy.

Andrew's sexuality is always on the cusp of self-awareness because Andrew is stunted emotionally and because it's hilarious.

[Side-note: The 'people change' thing is a hold-over from the fact that the scene was originally written for Dawn (but Michelle turned us down). The idea was, there's little Dawn, then in the last scene there's hot grown-up Dawn going out on the town, a heavy visual support of people changing (since Spike and Angel always see her as older brothers do)."

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Thanks very much for looking that up. I'm still cheesed at Joss for allowign what looked look an informercial for Exodus International to air.

So-clueless-he-doesn't-realize-he's-gay Andrew is fine. Apparently converted Andrew is not.

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extrajoker.livejournal.com

A: Or were they going out to check out guys together?

B: That's what I choose to believe.

Me: Ditto. Otherwise, it doesn't make any sense. I didn't read the "people change" comment as indicative of sexual reorientation, despite Andrew's seeming playboyism. On the other hand, it is that very scene that drove home the injustice for me. Andrew lecturing to Angel and Spike despite the fact that he has so obviously not grown as a person and never seems to have paid -- even emotionally -- for murdering his best friend...that really galled me.

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(Exodus Int'l) Never heard of them before -- wow, that's appalling.

(Andrew) Well, except that he's still pretty annoying, regardless of any sexual confusion. ;-)

But I did fall off the sofa laughing when he used the jet-pack to launch himself into the roof.

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I thought people were supposed to get all up in arms when gay people claim to convert to straightness? Or were they going out to check out guys together?

Of course, on the flip side, Willow claims to convert to complete lesbianhood--"Gay now"--as if her previous love and desire for Oz and Xander is the sort of thing that could never, ever again happen in her life. That bothers me too. Maybe Joss can't allow characters to just be bi.

People get up in arms because other people don't fit their own agendas. People /do/ change. One famous case is the singer Tom Robinson, who in the 80s was a vociferous gay advocate, then settled down with a woman and had a kid. He still performs "Glad to be Gay", but explains that it's about not letting anybody else tell you who you can and cannot love. Just because Andrew discovers that he likes girls too, does that mean that he doesn't like guys too -- who says Joss hasn't written a bi character? Again, a not famous case, an ex-girlfriend of mine, previously totally straight, at the time I was going out with her she was bi, and is now strictly "gay now" and doesn't consider relationships with men (I don't /think/ that was my doing) -- she's in a civil partnership with another woman. Both Andrew's and Willow's changes match things that happen in real life. People /do/ change, despite what activists may wish. Nothing to do with ex-gay movements (or ex-straight movements in the case of those going the other way), nothing to do with religious pressures, they just change.

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Thanks very much for looking that up. I'm still cheesed at Joss for allowign what looked look an informercial for Exodus International to air.

So-clueless-he-doesn't-realize-he's-gay Andrew is fine. Apparently converted Andrew is not.

Given that Joss had people going /both/ ways I hardly think it's an ad for Exodus International (two of whose whose founders, amusingly, later decided that the ex-gay thing hadn't worked out for them and went back to being openly gay). Just because there are some pillocks out there who try to force people to change, doesn't mean that they don't change naturally. It seems that some people react so badly to the "ex-gay" movement that they in turn want to see relationships messed up rather than have their agenda disrupted.

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Ah, good. That sits better for me. Thanks!

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True, it's silly and even insulting to have Andrew, of all people, lecturing immortals on maturity. :) Hopefully it was *meant* ironically.

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